Comments on: France’s right is left

By: Dave Neary

Dave Neary — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:53:27 +0000

@Isak: “left vs right is quite limited anyway. It’s more like a multi dimensional scale” – I say as much. However, I disagree with your statement that left & right are only relevant within a given state.

That’s true if you’re an absolute relativist, but if (like me) you fall somewhere between relativism and absolutism, then it’s not quite true. I think that there are forms of government that are quite clearly worse than others, and a big grey zone in the middle which may or may not be appropriate depending on financial conditions, local culture and a bunch of other parameters.

I agree with bochecha – both Aperican parties are right wing – in the US it’s really the difference between social progressives and social conservatives, fiscally, Clinton lowered the deficit, Bush Sr. raised taxes, Bush Jr. ran record deficits.

I also agree that most of Western Europe is relatively left-wing fiscally compared to the US, and the difference again is usually in parties’ positions on social issues.

But there are definitely core principles and core priorities that we can call left & right wing, and which change over time.

Whether people who are better off should pay more for better education and healthcare, but in consequence get taxed less, or pay more taxes and have the state provide the same service to all, is a core question which needs asking, and one side or the other cannot be taken blindly as a fundamental right (to give one example).

By: Isak

Isak — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:31:52 +0000

Well, the terms “left” vs “right” are really only meaningful when compared within a single country (or for countries which have very similar governments). Applying the american definitions of “left” and “right” (I assume that’s what you mean in this blog post) to most european governments is pretty useless since they would probably all be considerd left of the center.

Also, the entire left vs right is quite limited anyway. It’s more like a multi dimensional scale

By: bochecha

bochecha — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:59:51 +0000

> “When you phrase things in this way, it’s clear to me that the “right wing” of French politics is actually quite left-wing:”

Well, that’s funny because most of the people I know (including me, I’m French) think that the left-wing of US-politics (and lot’s of other countries) is totally right-wing…

I guess it’s all relative

By: Dave Neary

Dave Neary — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:44:42 +0000

@ElLolo: You say I list “only positive things” – to an American, having 45% of your paycheck taken by the state is not a positive. Also, in other countries, a minimum level of healthcare or education is considered a right, but most of these things work in some way related to means – the state pays for things when people can’t pay themselves, but the wealthy take care of themselves.

In Ireland, someone on welfare can still get access to a hospital bed, but it will be in a ward with maybe 20 other people. With health insurance, you’ll be in a room with 4 or 5 other people, and if you’re prepared to pay extra (around €50 per day) you get a private room. In France, on the public health service, Anne shared a room with one other person. And when a single room became free, she was on her own. No cost to us.

What changes in France is the level of responsibility which people (right & left) consider normal on the part of the state.

By: sxpert

sxpert — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:55:58 +0000

We have our share of people that believe that unemployed people are in this state because they want it, it’s their fault blah blah.
However, when you tell them to face their responsibilities, and assume that they think the better solution would be to violently eliminate those people living on welfare, it seems they, erh… start to think and say “you can’t do that”…

By: elLolo

elLolo — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:27:49 +0000

Your proof is strange because you list positive things (about social insurance, education, healthcare , etc.) and then you conclude that the Right wing is left! Those two things are unrelated and the first has been obtained with time and different governments.

You should write more about what’s happening to healthcare today or about taxes decreasing only for rich people.
Furthermore you are wrong about teachers because they are not on strike to protest against a minimum service (this has been done a few months ago) but against cuts in teacher staffs and against changes in timetables.

If you think that the current French government is left then I would like to know what you think about the Italian one…

By: human enemy

human enemy — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:01:31 +0000

Indeed we talk about *right* and *left* in France like in other countries. But maybe more as those terms come from the French Revolution.

By: Tomáš Hnyk

Tomáš Hnyk — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:01:03 +0000

Well, welcome to the Continent. I doubt there are more than a couple of European countries beside the UK and Ireland, if any, that are not like France in this aspect.

By: werebunny

werebunny — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:36:34 +0000

just to clarify the quote. americans want better healthcare and social welfare for all in general but don’t want to pay for it.

By: werebunny

werebunny — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:31:41 +0000

that’s why Europe rocks (for the most part) on social issues (and human rights) and the US sucks.
For them socialism = communism. Reading some of the comments during the US election i would say that the “republicans” see anybody getting social welfare as a crack junkie and if you are a woman the you are a crack mom.
“Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society” — Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes