Comments on: All your permissions are belong to us http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/ Just another GNOME Blogs weblog Sat, 30 Aug 2008 16:56:09 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Bastien Nocera http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-96 Bastien Nocera Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-96 The whole of the dialogue is showing the current state of the permissions for that file...<p/>Except the "chmod" part, which launches a command for which you wouldn't see the output, or whether it's worked at all. <p/>Also, when would it be applied? There's no button to apply it, and changing it when unfocusing the text widget looks a recipe for disaster.<p/>Being able to run arbitrary commands on the file itself, and the subdirectories would be a better idea, IMO. The whole of the dialogue is showing the current state of the permissions for that file…

Except the “chmod” part, which launches a command for which you wouldn’t see the output, or whether it’s worked at all.

Also, when would it be applied? There’s no button to apply it, and changing it when unfocusing the text widget looks a recipe for disaster.

Being able to run arbitrary commands on the file itself, and the subdirectories would be a better idea, IMO.

]]> By: Paul Betts http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-97 Paul Betts Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-97 Just a thought, but I suspect the word "recursive" may have most non-CS people shaking their heads. Maybe "Apply changes to everything in this folder?", while somewhat less clear to you and me, would be infinitely more clear to someone who didn't understand recursion Just a thought, but I suspect the word “recursive” may have most non-CS people shaking their heads. Maybe “Apply changes to everything in this folder?”, while somewhat less clear to you and me, would be infinitely more clear to someone who didn’t understand recursion

]]> By: Florin http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-98 Florin Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-98 The recursive application lacks "discoverability". I certainly don't want to poke around with something that dangerous (I can lock myself out of my files) which has "instant apply", just to find out how to do it recursively.<p/>And what about the "ooops" button on you "prompt for recursivitiy" dialog? You acknowledge that the user cannot reverse easily, but you don't offer a easy way out.<p/>I suggest highlighting the original values with some special color/outline, so users can feel safer in changing the permissions. The recursive application lacks “discoverability”. I certainly don’t want to poke around with something that dangerous (I can lock myself out of my files) which has “instant apply”, just to find out how to do it recursively.

And what about the “ooops” button on you “prompt for recursivitiy” dialog? You acknowledge that the user cannot reverse easily, but you don’t offer a easy way out.

I suggest highlighting the original values with some special color/outline, so users can feel safer in changing the permissions.

]]> By: Christian Neumair http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-99 Christian Neumair Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-99 Bastien:<p/>> The whole of the dialogue is showing the current state of the permissions for that file...<br/>> Except the "chmod" part, which launches a command for which you wouldn't see the output, or whether it's worked at all. <p/>The "chmod" part doesn't launch a command. We parse the string using code from the GNU coreutils, convert it into a GnomeVFSFilePermissions mask and apply it ourselves. How else could I have stated that this also works for remote shares? You will at least be notified that it is applying your changes with a watch cursor, and you will be notified by an error dialog about failed changes.<p/>> Also, when would it be applied? There's no button to apply it, and changing it when unfocusing the text widget looks a recipe for disaster.<p/>You have to press enter when the entry is focused. That's IMHO how people who use shells denote "I'm fine with my command, now run it!".<p/>Paul:<p/>> Just a thought, but I suspect the word "recursive" may have most non-CS people shaking their heads.<p/>Did you note that I'm presenting two different dialogs, depending on whether the entry resembling chmod was used or not? Bastien:

> The whole of the dialogue is showing the current state of the permissions for that file…
> Except the “chmod” part, which launches a command for which you wouldn’t see the output, or whether it’s worked at all.

The “chmod” part doesn’t launch a command. We parse the string using code from the GNU coreutils, convert it into a GnomeVFSFilePermissions mask and apply it ourselves. How else could I have stated that this also works for remote shares? You will at least be notified that it is applying your changes with a watch cursor, and you will be notified by an error dialog about failed changes.

> Also, when would it be applied? There’s no button to apply it, and changing it when unfocusing the text widget looks a recipe for disaster.

You have to press enter when the entry is focused. That’s IMHO how people who use shells denote “I’m fine with my command, now run it!”.

Paul:

> Just a thought, but I suspect the word “recursive” may have most non-CS people shaking their heads.

Did you note that I’m presenting two different dialogs, depending on whether the entry resembling chmod was used or not?

]]> By: Christian Neumair http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-100 Christian Neumair Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-100 Florin:<p/>> The recursive application lacks "discoverability".<p/>Maybe you could explain why?<p/>> I certainly don't want to poke around with something that<br/>> dangerous (I can lock myself out of my files) which has <br/>> "instant apply", just to find out how to do it recursively.<p/>Well, you can't lock yourself out of your files, at least not using the drop down entries. The "None" entry is not available in user's "Access" dropdown.<p/>> And what about the "ooops" button on you "prompt for<br/>> recursivitiy" dialog? You acknowledge that the user cannot<br/>> reverse easily, but you don't offer a easy way out.<p/>I assume that the user wants to change permissions of the folder, so I can assume that he wants Nautilus to modify at least the permissions of the folder itself.<p/>> I suggest highlighting the original values with some<br/>> special color/outline, so users can feel safer in changing<br/>> the permissions.<p/>What original values? The original values are preselected in the drop-downs. Florin:

> The recursive application lacks “discoverability”.

Maybe you could explain why?

> I certainly don’t want to poke around with something that
> dangerous (I can lock myself out of my files) which has
> “instant apply”, just to find out how to do it recursively.

Well, you can’t lock yourself out of your files, at least not using the drop down entries. The “None” entry is not available in user’s “Access” dropdown.

> And what about the “ooops” button on you “prompt for
> recursivitiy” dialog? You acknowledge that the user cannot
> reverse easily, but you don’t offer a easy way out.

I assume that the user wants to change permissions of the folder, so I can assume that he wants Nautilus to modify at least the permissions of the folder itself.

> I suggest highlighting the original values with some
> special color/outline, so users can feel safer in changing
> the permissions.

What original values? The original values are preselected in the drop-downs.

]]> By: emmanuel http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-101 emmanuel Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-101 i think you've pretty much nailed it. very good!<p/>just two comments:<br/>1. i would change the label "chmod" to "chmod (enter to apply)"<br/>2. i woulnd't have two different dialogs to ask if the user wants recursive or not recursive action. i would only keep the "simple" version.<br/>3. i'm not certain separating "execute" rights for owner/group/other is needed, but why not. some might object because of clutter but ok it gives power without forcing going to the command-line. and avoids a regression from gnome 2.12.<p/>this version is unbelievably better than you version #2. i didn't think it's possible to make a so good one. i think you’ve pretty much nailed it. very good!

just two comments:
1. i would change the label “chmod” to “chmod (enter to apply)”
2. i woulnd’t have two different dialogs to ask if the user wants recursive or not recursive action. i would only keep the “simple” version.
3. i’m not certain separating “execute” rights for owner/group/other is needed, but why not. some might object because of clutter but ok it gives power without forcing going to the command-line. and avoids a regression from gnome 2.12.

this version is unbelievably better than you version #2. i didn’t think it’s possible to make a so good one.

]]> By: emmanuel http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-102 emmanuel Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-102 btw by the "simple" version i meant the version for non-UNIX experts. the one that doesn't mention "recursive". experts will understand both versions. so there's no need for an expert version IMHO. btw by the “simple” version i meant the version for non-UNIX experts. the one that doesn’t mention “recursive”. experts will understand both versions. so there’s no need for an expert version IMHO.

]]> By: Martin http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-103 Martin Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-103 Some distributions use seperate groups for each user. How would the group drop-down work in a system with 100 or 1000 groups? Is there a threshold where the drop-down becomes a text-field?<br/>I also agree that looking at the dialog doesn't clue you in on how to change permissions recursively, I recon a user looking to do this can do a fair amount of looking around before realising it's worked into the close button (I don't believe users read manuals or help files generally). At the same time, if you're not looking to recursively change permissions, you would still get that question each time you want to change permission for a file.<br/>These changes are looking nice otherways. Some distributions use seperate groups for each user. How would the group drop-down work in a system with 100 or 1000 groups? Is there a threshold where the drop-down becomes a text-field?
I also agree that looking at the dialog doesn’t clue you in on how to change permissions recursively, I recon a user looking to do this can do a fair amount of looking around before realising it’s worked into the close button (I don’t believe users read manuals or help files generally). At the same time, if you’re not looking to recursively change permissions, you would still get that question each time you want to change permission for a file.
These changes are looking nice otherways.

]]> By: emmanuel http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-104 emmanuel Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-104 >At the same time, if you're not looking to recursively change >permissions, you would still get that question each time you >want to change permission for a file.<p/>no, everytime you change permission for a directory, or a selection containing a directory: so it's quite OK, it makes sense in the end. >At the same time, if you’re not looking to recursively change >permissions, you would still get that question each time you >want to change permission for a file.

no, everytime you change permission for a directory, or a selection containing a directory: so it’s quite OK, it makes sense in the end.

]]> By: Philip Hofstetter http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-105 Philip Hofstetter Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000 http://blogs.gnome.org/cneumair/2006/03/06/all-your-permissions-are-belong-to-us/#comment-105 Hi,<p/>while the recursive-thingie does lack discoverability in the advanced mode, I think it's fine in the dropdown-mode of the dialog.<p/>Why?<p/>Because non-professional users don't open that dialog with the idea to recusively change permissions - mostly because it does not occur to them that there are two possible outcomes of their changing permission.<p/>They just visit the dialog, make the changes and then, when that question pops up, learn that there are two possiblities and THEN decide.<p/>Questions:<p/>1) What happens if I close the recursive-question-dialog with the X? Yeah. nothing in the file system is changed, but what happens? Is the dialog closed? Does the dialog stay open but nothing changes? How to close then?<p/>2) IMHO, that permissions thing is more of a nuiscance than anything else for the casual user. I friend of mine is using Mac OS X and the only time he comes across the permission stuff is when he's using that "fix permissions"-feature of the disk utility. Maybe this functionality can even removed?<p/>Other than that, I really, really like the dialog design here.<p/>Philip Hi,

while the recursive-thingie does lack discoverability in the advanced mode, I think it’s fine in the dropdown-mode of the dialog.

Why?

Because non-professional users don’t open that dialog with the idea to recusively change permissions - mostly because it does not occur to them that there are two possible outcomes of their changing permission.

They just visit the dialog, make the changes and then, when that question pops up, learn that there are two possiblities and THEN decide.

Questions:

1) What happens if I close the recursive-question-dialog with the X? Yeah. nothing in the file system is changed, but what happens? Is the dialog closed? Does the dialog stay open but nothing changes? How to close then?

2) IMHO, that permissions thing is more of a nuiscance than anything else for the casual user. I friend of mine is using Mac OS X and the only time he comes across the permission stuff is when he’s using that “fix permissions”-feature of the disk utility. Maybe this functionality can even removed?

Other than that, I really, really like the dialog design here.

Philip

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