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	<title>Comments on: ODF vs OOX : Asking the wrong questions</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/</link>
	<description>More than you ever wanted to know about spreadsheet internals</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 21:49:30 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 21:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/#comment-36</guid>
		<description>Apparently the Gnumeric site does not even state that Gnumeric supports OOXML</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently the Gnumeric site does not even state that Gnumeric supports OOXML</p>
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		<title>By: Gnumeric&#8217;s view on OOXML &#171; CyberTech Rambler</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Gnumeric&#8217;s view on OOXML &#171; CyberTech Rambler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 16:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/#comment-35</guid>
		<description>[...] Gnumeric&#8217;s view on&#160;OOXML Filed under: Uncategorized &#8212; ctrambler @ 4:29 pm   Let&#8217;s face it, I am not writing a office application, neither is 99.9% of the people discussing this topic. Hence, it is refreshing to see the viewpoint of an Gnumeric spreadsheet writer. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Gnumeric&#8217;s view on&nbsp;OOXML Filed under: Uncategorized &#8212; ctrambler @ 4:29 pm   Let&#8217;s face it, I am not writing a office application, neither is 99.9% of the people discussing this topic. Hence, it is refreshing to see the viewpoint of an Gnumeric spreadsheet writer. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MSDN Blog Postings &#187; Links 09-28-2007</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>MSDN Blog Postings &#187; Links 09-28-2007</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:52:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/#comment-34</guid>
		<description>[...] Jody Goldberg talks about implementing ODF and Open XML – I may have spoke a bit too soon in referring to Gnumeric&#8217;s support of OpenXML as being really rich, but that&#8217;s slowly changing. Jody talks about how he was able to pretty easily add in Open XML&#8217;s charting recently. There are some great discussions down in the comments of the post. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Jody Goldberg talks about implementing ODF and Open XML – I may have spoke a bit too soon in referring to Gnumeric&#8217;s support of OpenXML as being really rich, but that&#8217;s slowly changing. Jody talks about how he was able to pretty easily add in Open XML&#8217;s charting recently. There are some great discussions down in the comments of the post. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Jones: Open XML Formats : Links 09-28-2007</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Jones: Open XML Formats : Links 09-28-2007</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/#comment-32</guid>
		<description>[...] to point out today, some of them are a bit older but I still thought they were good to call out: Jody Goldberg talks about implementing ODF and Open XML – I may have spoke a bit too soon in referring to Gnumeric&#039;s support of OpenXML as being really [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to point out today, some of them are a bit older but I still thought they were good to call out: Jody Goldberg talks about implementing ODF and Open XML – I may have spoke a bit too soon in referring to Gnumeric&#8217;s support of OpenXML as being really [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jose_x</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>Jose_x</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 13:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/#comment-31</guid>
		<description>&gt;&gt; There&#039;s no rationale that I can see to implement every arcane nook and cranny of the packaging format before doing anything useful. libgsf doesn&#039;t claim to handle everything in OPC, ODF, zip, or OLE2. Yet it seems to cover the vast majority of the usecases required to read and write most documents.

It may be true that person X speaks English better than French, but if the English is still sloppy, you will have a difficult time getting a job as a writer, interpreter, language teacher, etc. Person X will find work with a client that doesn&#039;t mind words being mistranslated or dropped every now and then or that doesn&#039;t mind producing written works and advertisements that are a little difficult for the audience to follow. A rival from France may fair much better within the same sector. In the end, if the French products are easier to use, the French company will grow in influence and maybe more people will learn to speak french. [Such an anology! Please don&#039;t comment.]

Person X also cannot argue that English is more consistent, efficient, whatever, than French solely using the logic that s/he speaks English better.

Closer to home, understand that Microsoft will always have an advantage over groups that refuse to follow a broken spec as close as Microsoft can. Legitimizing this broken spec will legitimize brokeness and put all competing implementations in a position to be faulty right off the bat or else go through disgusting efforts in order to perhaps match the leader of the broken spec implementations (Microsoft).

[I want to highlight one place where the analogy breaks down. Computers have not trouble switching languages if they are given the correct recipe (meaning if you run the proper app). Humans can&#039;t switch to a new language in a month, much less in microseconds. Taking this into account, it&#039;s now easier to believe that many people would decide to learn/engage in French if that would lead to better communication... all else being equal.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt; There&#8217;s no rationale that I can see to implement every arcane nook and cranny of the packaging format before doing anything useful. libgsf doesn&#8217;t claim to handle everything in OPC, ODF, zip, or OLE2. Yet it seems to cover the vast majority of the usecases required to read and write most documents.</p>
<p>It may be true that person X speaks English better than French, but if the English is still sloppy, you will have a difficult time getting a job as a writer, interpreter, language teacher, etc. Person X will find work with a client that doesn&#8217;t mind words being mistranslated or dropped every now and then or that doesn&#8217;t mind producing written works and advertisements that are a little difficult for the audience to follow. A rival from France may fair much better within the same sector. In the end, if the French products are easier to use, the French company will grow in influence and maybe more people will learn to speak french. [Such an anology! Please don't comment.]</p>
<p>Person X also cannot argue that English is more consistent, efficient, whatever, than French solely using the logic that s/he speaks English better.</p>
<p>Closer to home, understand that Microsoft will always have an advantage over groups that refuse to follow a broken spec as close as Microsoft can. Legitimizing this broken spec will legitimize brokeness and put all competing implementations in a position to be faulty right off the bat or else go through disgusting efforts in order to perhaps match the leader of the broken spec implementations (Microsoft).</p>
<p>[I want to highlight one place where the analogy breaks down. Computers have not trouble switching languages if they are given the correct recipe (meaning if you run the proper app). Humans can't switch to a new language in a month, much less in microseconds. Taking this into account, it's now easier to believe that many people would decide to learn/engage in French if that would lead to better communication... all else being equal.]</p>
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		<title>By: Jose_x</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>Jose_x</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/#comment-30</guid>
		<description>In essense, it is an unfair comparison to ODF because as stated OOXML was already basically supported through reverse engineered converters. This has nothing at all to do with the quality of the format or the mistake being made, as duplicate standards effort, if it is accepted when ODF exists already and adheres to existing open standards.


To give an example, let&#039;s say that there is an author that writes books in a horrible horrible style and in a foreign language. You memorize all the author&#039;s works not knowing better or perhaps in order to be able to get a job that requires knowledge of the author&#039;s works. Later, you are given the dictionary/grammar books to the language and realize what a horrible mess it was, but it is still much easier for you to relate to that work than to something of better quality. Of course, you are an exception. Most other people will not bother with that author unless their marriage depends on it (ie, please please don&#039;t make me).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In essense, it is an unfair comparison to ODF because as stated OOXML was already basically supported through reverse engineered converters. This has nothing at all to do with the quality of the format or the mistake being made, as duplicate standards effort, if it is accepted when ODF exists already and adheres to existing open standards.</p>
<p>To give an example, let&#8217;s say that there is an author that writes books in a horrible horrible style and in a foreign language. You memorize all the author&#8217;s works not knowing better or perhaps in order to be able to get a job that requires knowledge of the author&#8217;s works. Later, you are given the dictionary/grammar books to the language and realize what a horrible mess it was, but it is still much easier for you to relate to that work than to something of better quality. Of course, you are an exception. Most other people will not bother with that author unless their marriage depends on it (ie, please please don&#8217;t make me).</p>
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		<title>By: orcmid</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>orcmid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:54:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/#comment-29</guid>
		<description>Wow, and they say blogs are a conversation!  I guess so.

Jody, I&#039;ve admired your contributions since you provide a leveling influence on the early version of the OpenFormula project.  

You mention ODF spreadsheets and I wonder which ODF spreadsheet formulas you are supporting.  Is it basically the OpenOffice.org version or are you being brave and implementing a draft of OpenFormula.  I&#039;m not clear on the status of that and which rev of ODF it will finally appear in.

Do you have any clues to offer?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, and they say blogs are a conversation!  I guess so.</p>
<p>Jody, I&#8217;ve admired your contributions since you provide a leveling influence on the early version of the OpenFormula project.  </p>
<p>You mention ODF spreadsheets and I wonder which ODF spreadsheet formulas you are supporting.  Is it basically the OpenOffice.org version or are you being brave and implementing a draft of OpenFormula.  I&#8217;m not clear on the status of that and which rev of ODF it will finally appear in.</p>
<p>Do you have any clues to offer?</p>
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		<title>By: Barney</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>Barney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/#comment-27</guid>
		<description>and everyone keeps thinking that MS OOXML is more than a hammer to beat back ODF and Open Office adoption. Why on earth would Microsoft give up any of its 30+% of their profits( from MS Office ) so competitors can read and write their formats? Why after 20 years of constantly manipulating its file formats and using those to keep customers paying for new versions and locking out the competition, would Microsoft do this?

IMO, this discussion is a waste of everyones time. WTF do we care if MS OOXML is easier to partially implement in Gnumeric than ODF? Just by touching MS OOXML, you are playing their pawn in the only purpose for this exercise. To kill ODF adaption and therefore the threat of Open Office and others as a replacement for Microsoft Office products. MS OOXML is freak&#039;n poison so leave it alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and everyone keeps thinking that MS OOXML is more than a hammer to beat back ODF and Open Office adoption. Why on earth would Microsoft give up any of its 30+% of their profits( from MS Office ) so competitors can read and write their formats? Why after 20 years of constantly manipulating its file formats and using those to keep customers paying for new versions and locking out the competition, would Microsoft do this?</p>
<p>IMO, this discussion is a waste of everyones time. WTF do we care if MS OOXML is easier to partially implement in Gnumeric than ODF? Just by touching MS OOXML, you are playing their pawn in the only purpose for this exercise. To kill ODF adaption and therefore the threat of Open Office and others as a replacement for Microsoft Office products. MS OOXML is freak&#8217;n poison so leave it alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Cyrus Mack</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyrus Mack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 22:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/#comment-26</guid>
		<description>I appear to be missing something. I thought the important part about any document spec or standard was which one can guarantee my right to access data? If you start from the premise that I have the right as an individual to access legally obtained data, then I cannot see anyone advocating OOXML. Since OOXML allows hooks to embedded objects in closed formats, that must mean it&#039;s possible to create documents that require MS Office (if I&#039;m wrong, please do correct me, because that&#039;s my impression) to properly view them.

I don&#039;t think it&#039;s too much to ask for open source developers to recognize this basic right, and that is why I find this article so disappointing. Do the right thing - pressure Microsoft into ensuring access for all.

-Cyrus Mack
http://www.bytesfree.org/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appear to be missing something. I thought the important part about any document spec or standard was which one can guarantee my right to access data? If you start from the premise that I have the right as an individual to access legally obtained data, then I cannot see anyone advocating OOXML. Since OOXML allows hooks to embedded objects in closed formats, that must mean it&#8217;s possible to create documents that require MS Office (if I&#8217;m wrong, please do correct me, because that&#8217;s my impression) to properly view them.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s too much to ask for open source developers to recognize this basic right, and that is why I find this article so disappointing. Do the right thing &#8211; pressure Microsoft into ensuring access for all.</p>
<p>-Cyrus Mack<br />
<a href="http://www.bytesfree.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.bytesfree.org/</a></p>
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		<title>By: jody</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>jody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Sep 2007 01:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/jody/2007/09/10/odf-vs-oox-asking-the-wrong-questions/#comment-25</guid>
		<description>Stephane : I&#039;m still not understanding why &#039;before I was able to support the first angle bracket of SpreadsheetML, it took me a month&#039;.   There&#039;s no rationale that I can see to implement every arcane nook and cranny of the packaging format before doing anything useful.   libgsf doesn&#039;t claim to handle everything in OPC, ODF, zip, or OLE2.  Yet it seems to cover the vast majority of the usecases required to read and write most documents.

The ODF advocates seemed happy to trumpet[1] gnumeric&#039;s limited support,  how is MS any different, other than our OOX support being somewhat further along than ODF ?

[1] www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/21450/oasis_odf_advantages_10dec2006.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephane : I&#8217;m still not understanding why &#8216;before I was able to support the first angle bracket of SpreadsheetML, it took me a month&#8217;.   There&#8217;s no rationale that I can see to implement every arcane nook and cranny of the packaging format before doing anything useful.   libgsf doesn&#8217;t claim to handle everything in OPC, ODF, zip, or OLE2.  Yet it seems to cover the vast majority of the usecases required to read and write most documents.</p>
<p>The ODF advocates seemed happy to trumpet[1] gnumeric&#8217;s limited support,  how is MS any different, other than our OOX support being somewhat further along than ODF ?</p>
<p>[1] <a href="http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/21450/oasis_odf_advantages_10dec2006.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/21450/oasis_odf_advantages_10dec2006.pdf</a></p>
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