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	<title>Comments on: Notifisation</title>
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	<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/2008/12/23/notifisation/</link>
	<description>"Many window managers are like Marshmallow Froot Loops; Metacity is like Cheerios."</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Marc Geerlings</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/2008/12/23/notifisation/comment-page-1/#comment-616</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Geerlings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 08:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/?p=220#comment-616</guid>
		<description>This is a bad idea. The notification-area should only be for applications who give out notifications, like network-manager, power-manager and applications which you normally not close but runs in the background still doing their thing like a music-player, instant-messenger, voip, mail-application, bittorrent client. 

For them it is natural that the close button operates as a close of window but not of the application. Maybe changing the X for these applications to something different is a option.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a bad idea. The notification-area should only be for applications who give out notifications, like network-manager, power-manager and applications which you normally not close but runs in the background still doing their thing like a music-player, instant-messenger, voip, mail-application, bittorrent client. </p>
<p>For them it is natural that the close button operates as a close of window but not of the application. Maybe changing the X for these applications to something different is a option.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Endolith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/2008/12/23/notifisation/comment-page-1/#comment-608</link>
		<dc:creator>Endolith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/?p=220#comment-608</guid>
		<description>&quot;Not all applications should support to be minimized in/to the tray so a new button in the window manager is not a point.&quot;

No one&#039;s asking for all apps to go into icon mode, and no one&#039;s asking for a new button that exists in all windows.  The button would only be present with windows that support the functionality:

http://launchpadlibrarian.net/16937009/4th%20button%20mockup.png

If there were really no difference between minimized mode and icon mode, apps wouldn&#039;t support both...  but they do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Not all applications should support to be minimized in/to the tray so a new button in the window manager is not a point.&#8221;</p>
<p>No one&#8217;s asking for all apps to go into icon mode, and no one&#8217;s asking for a new button that exists in all windows.  The button would only be present with windows that support the functionality:</p>
<p><a href="http://launchpadlibrarian.net/16937009/4th%20button%20mockup.png" rel="nofollow">http://launchpadlibrarian.net/16937009/4th%20button%20mockup.png</a></p>
<p>If there were really no difference between minimized mode and icon mode, apps wouldn&#8217;t support both&#8230;  but they do.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Pedro Martínez Juliá</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/2008/12/23/notifisation/comment-page-1/#comment-607</link>
		<dc:creator>Pedro Martínez Juliá</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:18:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/?p=220#comment-607</guid>
		<description>Not all applications should support to be minimized in/to the tray so a new button in the window manager is not a point. A good approach is to provide a place for application dependant icons so it can add actions to the window and it will receive the events when those icons are clicked.

For minimizing to the tray, an application should provide two view/interfaces: [Window] and [Icon] so the window manager can use the [Window] view and the tray can use the [Icon] view. With this approach, those applications providing the two intrfaces can be automatically minimized to the tray, and those that don&#039;t provide it are minimized to the task-bar. This behavior should be implemented in the graphic toolkit (GTK, QT...), not the window manager.

Regards,

    Pedro</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not all applications should support to be minimized in/to the tray so a new button in the window manager is not a point. A good approach is to provide a place for application dependant icons so it can add actions to the window and it will receive the events when those icons are clicked.</p>
<p>For minimizing to the tray, an application should provide two view/interfaces: [Window] and [Icon] so the window manager can use the [Window] view and the tray can use the [Icon] view. With this approach, those applications providing the two intrfaces can be automatically minimized to the tray, and those that don&#8217;t provide it are minimized to the task-bar. This behavior should be implemented in the graphic toolkit (GTK, QT&#8230;), not the window manager.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>    Pedro</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Endolith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/2008/12/23/notifisation/comment-page-1/#comment-606</link>
		<dc:creator>Endolith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/?p=220#comment-606</guid>
		<description>&quot;For that matter, reducing the task bar to bare icons would be enough of a solution for many users. Just place iconified windows as bare icons (no title on the button) aligned to the right side of the task bar applet.&quot;

How is this any different from an applet?  You can place an icon-style applet anywhere you want, including next to the window list applet.

The issue under discussion is how to get the window into this icon applet form.  Currently some apps let you do it by pressing the Close button, some by pressing the Minimize button, and some by pressing the applet icon itself.  I don&#039;t think any of these is the correct way to do it.  

The proposal is to add a control in the window itself that lets you command the window into icon form.

Minimized: Window is active, but not displayed on screen.  Shows up in Window List and Alt+Tab.

&quot;Iconified&quot;: Window is not present at all, app is in a daemon-like state, does not show up in window list or Alt+Tab</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;For that matter, reducing the task bar to bare icons would be enough of a solution for many users. Just place iconified windows as bare icons (no title on the button) aligned to the right side of the task bar applet.&#8221;</p>
<p>How is this any different from an applet?  You can place an icon-style applet anywhere you want, including next to the window list applet.</p>
<p>The issue under discussion is how to get the window into this icon applet form.  Currently some apps let you do it by pressing the Close button, some by pressing the Minimize button, and some by pressing the applet icon itself.  I don&#8217;t think any of these is the correct way to do it.  </p>
<p>The proposal is to add a control in the window itself that lets you command the window into icon form.</p>
<p>Minimized: Window is active, but not displayed on screen.  Shows up in Window List and Alt+Tab.</p>
<p>&#8220;Iconified&#8221;: Window is not present at all, app is in a daemon-like state, does not show up in window list or Alt+Tab</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Patrys</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/2008/12/23/notifisation/comment-page-1/#comment-605</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/?p=220#comment-605</guid>
		<description>On second thought, what makes &quot;iconify&quot; so special? It&#039;s just sticky + minimize but many users seem to think that minimize sucks. Just make the above suggestion default for minimized windows and everyone should be happy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On second thought, what makes &#8220;iconify&#8221; so special? It&#8217;s just sticky + minimize but many users seem to think that minimize sucks. Just make the above suggestion default for minimized windows and everyone should be happy.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Endolith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/2008/12/23/notifisation/comment-page-1/#comment-604</link>
		<dc:creator>Endolith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:00:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/?p=220#comment-604</guid>
		<description>I told you it was a sticking point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I told you it was a sticking point.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Patrys</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/2008/12/23/notifisation/comment-page-1/#comment-603</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 18:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/?p=220#comment-603</guid>
		<description>Stephen:

For that matter, reducing the task bar to bare icons would be enough of a solution for many users. Just place iconified windows as bare icons (no title on the button) aligned to the right side of the task bar applet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen:</p>
<p>For that matter, reducing the task bar to bare icons would be enough of a solution for many users. Just place iconified windows as bare icons (no title on the button) aligned to the right side of the task bar applet.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stephen A.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/2008/12/23/notifisation/comment-page-1/#comment-600</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen A.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 18:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/?p=220#comment-600</guid>
		<description>&quot;Again, this is irrelevant. Regardless of whether they are implemented as applets or notification area icons, they still have an “icon” state that is different from “closed” and “minimized”. How do we manage all four of these states?&quot;

One possibility: merge the &quot;minimized&quot; and &quot;icon&quot; states into a more advanced taskbar, taking hints from the Avant Window Navigator (or OSX dock) and Windows 7 taskbar.

Another: implement a cross-platform spec for panel applets (so you don&#039;t have to (ab)use the notification panel for this functionality).

A third: change the HIG to remove the line between notifications and applets, effectively turning the notification panel into a windows-like system tray.

From these, I believe #2 tackles the real issue. #1 would be nice to have, but requires *significant* interaction testing. #3 (what we currently have) is the worst possible solution (a usability nightmare, which is why Microsoft turned away from that in Windows 7.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Again, this is irrelevant. Regardless of whether they are implemented as applets or notification area icons, they still have an “icon” state that is different from “closed” and “minimized”. How do we manage all four of these states?&#8221;</p>
<p>One possibility: merge the &#8220;minimized&#8221; and &#8220;icon&#8221; states into a more advanced taskbar, taking hints from the Avant Window Navigator (or OSX dock) and Windows 7 taskbar.</p>
<p>Another: implement a cross-platform spec for panel applets (so you don&#8217;t have to (ab)use the notification panel for this functionality).</p>
<p>A third: change the HIG to remove the line between notifications and applets, effectively turning the notification panel into a windows-like system tray.</p>
<p>From these, I believe #2 tackles the real issue. #1 would be nice to have, but requires *significant* interaction testing. #3 (what we currently have) is the worst possible solution (a usability nightmare, which is why Microsoft turned away from that in Windows 7.)</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Patrys</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/2008/12/23/notifisation/comment-page-1/#comment-599</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:53:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/?p=220#comment-599</guid>
		<description>Oh $god, please no. I like the current state of things as most apps that behave this way can be configured not to fsck with my notification area. If you stick the feature in Metacity, apps will learn to expect it. I don&#039;t want to see GNOME get an &quot;unused notification icons&quot; arrow next to the notification area like you do in Windows XP. I actually want to use the tray for notifications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh $god, please no. I like the current state of things as most apps that behave this way can be configured not to fsck with my notification area. If you stick the feature in Metacity, apps will learn to expect it. I don&#8217;t want to see GNOME get an &#8220;unused notification icons&#8221; arrow next to the notification area like you do in Windows XP. I actually want to use the tray for notifications.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Endolith</title>
		<link>http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/2008/12/23/notifisation/comment-page-1/#comment-598</link>
		<dc:creator>Endolith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:31:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.gnome.org/metacity/?p=220#comment-598</guid>
		<description>&quot;As the previous poster said, Transmission, Deluge, Gaim, Banshee should actually be applets instead of notification icons.&quot;

Again, this is irrelevant.  Regardless of whether they are implemented as applets or notification area icons, they still have an &quot;icon&quot; state that is different from &quot;closed&quot; and &quot;minimized&quot;.  How do we manage all four of these states?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;As the previous poster said, Transmission, Deluge, Gaim, Banshee should actually be applets instead of notification icons.&#8221;</p>
<p>Again, this is irrelevant.  Regardless of whether they are implemented as applets or notification area icons, they still have an &#8220;icon&#8221; state that is different from &#8220;closed&#8221; and &#8220;minimized&#8221;.  How do we manage all four of these states?</p>
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